GOAT Genetics/ horns
Issues with horns.
one of the biggest concerns we seem to see with goats is .. horns you either love them or you hate them.
I hate horns , i wont sell a goat with horns (scurs yes) there are people that i'll be honest and i say this with no meanness intended, appear to lazy or to soft to do the horns so make a series of excuses to justify it.
NOW I will say I GET it with boers that show, its a requirements and they buff and shape them (bet you didn't know that) they also work with those animals a lot more than the average joe that feels the need to make excuses to maintain them.
Im being to harsh? what are these "excuses"?
"they use them for predator protection"
false. a goat is a prey animal and I have herding dogs which rely on a prey response and ive also seen coyotes and bobcats as well as mountain lions hunting goats and in a few tragic cases horses and donkeys ending goats lives . all horned and on places ive hunted or with animals i farm sat for.
most of the herd will run , a few usually 2-3 may stand their ground this is not sex determined as a senior or older doe may do it and raise their hair and a buck may flee.
they will lower their head to show off those horns and some one out there will shout from the bleachers this is "defence" and sure its an attempt but the thing about predators is this. Most go for the neck or the legs and when that goat lowers them it wont deter them for much time at all there will be a test rush the goat will charge forward and the predator will turn and either choose that neck or the legs usually the neck. if they miss the goat will generally go from defense to flee and predator will go for the legs again in the case of the cats its usually the back and spine sometimes the belly. in the case of horses and donkeys they will aim to bite the back, and spine and break it.
if a predator can they will grab those horns and use them as a handle to hold them while other animals join in to rip them apart.
"they need them for the heat"
I live in texas, its hot here and not at ANY point in time have i seen a horned animal fairing better in the heat than a disbudded or polled animal.
"dehorning is to risky!"
there is a common misconception that disbudding is the same as dehorning and that all dhorns are unsafe.
whats the difference?
disbudding is done on kids i typically do it within the first 2 weeks of life depending on horn bud size and how active they are. they get a CDT shot the day before as it makes them lethargic and sluggish and makes them stressed to do both at the same time the day i disbud i give a bottle let them get nice and relaxed after heat up my heat gun then apply at worst i get a flinch and a bit of angry yells but as soon as i sit them down they run back to me where i offer a bottle again and all is forgiven.
some people again far to soft to the detriment of the animal will insist on a vet or take an uneducated vet at their word and yes they CAN be uneducated to put them under full sedation. this is VERY risky and should ONLY be done for larger procedures goats are susceptible to it and can DIE and yes ive known vets to sedate them then walk away and they die.
A dehorn if left to long can see the horns connecting to the sinus cavity some have started banding horns early to try and prevent them getting to this point but your BEST bet and least amount of long term pain is to burn buds if they scur band them because they are already malformed and tend to fall off or break easily.
"its cruel!"
no more cruel than what some parents force their children to do. and knowing how goats are with each other and how new goat owners that watch them inevitably ask about "herd queens " and "bully goats" they need to consider the goat and other goats safety.
they gore each other, they can break each others limbs or ripoff parts with horns because the other party and they themselves are not reacting like predator and prey usually the victim has no idea her buddy is mad shes standing in her preferred spot and then she has a horn in her gut. or bucks will play and toss the horns and well ... behold this distrubing video
horns make them more destructive to other animals, people because theyhave the horns they recognize them as a buffer and will hit harder they also recognize them as a tool to get their way by harming other animals, ripping metal and so on apart to get to their goals or just to assert dominance over anyone or thing which results ininjuries without horns they lack that buffer and you will often see them slow down even when fighting just before impact a head butt may bruise but it wont disembowel. A friend of mine went into her barn one day to find a goat had been gored so badly the intestines and organs were on the floor.
another insisted they needed the horns for protection and found out what a nervous wether with superiority issues does when hes food aggressive and not confident he attack the other wether to the point of bloating (they grew up together) and also he began ramming his buddy into metal buildings and grinding the horns into him. it can be likened to being stabbed.
her son went out to feed them and unfortunately reached over the fence near the barn..the wether slammed him with the flats of his horns knocking him out.
the wether then realized he could get what he wanted by attacking the other goat wasnt getting the food the human drops it faster so he began using the horns to threaten the family and charging them any time they approached something he wanted goat or human he would wave his horns like a threat. when confronted with a coyote he screamed and ran like the cowardly shite he was so after discussing with them he was set for processing
horns are a threat to others and themselves if they get trapped by the horns they can get stuck and starve to death or be eaten as a convenient meal by predators
another argument i hear is "they are a convenient handle" you know what else is? a collar i use dog collars , flats with no d rings they dont get caught on anything because horns are a HORRIBLE thing to try and hold on to
disbudding is your best option OR understanding polled genetics along with disbudding.
you will never ethically have a completely polled herd of goats unless scientists come through with a test which they have not however they have identified a gene thats typically but not always found in polled goat lines and when polled goats breed together this increases the risk of this gene that rides along with it.
it causes hermaphrodite goats or sterility concerns may be completely invisible.
there were even some claims that homozygous polled does are terminated in the womb by this gene.
that said its considered widely to be unethical and will continue to be until their is a test that can be done to find and breed away from the problem genetics.
polled is dominant to horned
giraffe or scur horn (genetic) are where they are genetically polled BUT present tiny scurs or a base for horns along the ridge
Cattle Genetics
Chondrodysplasia And Polled
A note, there is widespread false information in regards to chondro in cattle particularly dexters. in december of 2022 people began to speak more openly about the blatantly false information and harassment a man was doing to others. He wrote up dialogue boxes on facebook and attached stolen images to them with a sob story the most noted was "inky" the cow who he claimed was a 14 year old wracked with severe arthritis due to her "disease" the owner stepped forward and cleared this up inky was a 22 year old cow that had calved around 20 times in her life, she was an old lady and her sad fate which lead to her death was in fact not chrondo but a broken hip from slipping on the ice one winter.
It was also found he was posting arthritis studies done on humans and hip displacement in dogs as "proof".
many discussed his possible agenda and why and the conclusion was reached
He has two agendas. The first is to change history to say that polled animals have hidden down the centuries and that modern polled cattle are pure bred with no integration. The second is that he has created a "true-short" herd which conforms to the original Irish breed standard without any chondrodysplasia. These true shorts he claims breed true and due to a high co-efficient of inbreeding are all very similar (note he does not believe in inbreeding depression in cattle despite numerous studies) . Both claims have been disproved on dcb but he has deleted everything. A few stout-hearted folk challenge him over and over but the sheer volume of info he puts out muddies the facts and many are fooled. However if you look at the total number on the page compared to how many either like his posts or defend him, it's a very small percentage.
Facts:
Chrondo is a genetic mutation much like the dwarfisim in corgis and like corgis it does not guarantee health concerns, structure , maintenance and genetics overall do.
like the natural bobtail gene in corgis when homozygous (two copies of the gene) it is lethal and a single gene individual is not affected with lethality.
Chrondo and non chrondo cattle need regular hoof maintenance and good structure to live a productive life.
Chrondo X non chrondo gives a 50% chance of chrondo
Chrondo x chrondo gives a 25% chance of lethality
Chondro is a DOMINANT gene its nor recessive so it cannot "pop up"
their is not a study guaranteeing all chondro cattle will break down nor any study on break downs in chondros.
it is not a disease
it is not unethical and has been a part of the breed since the beginning when there was no testing. they were called short leg and long leg "some" people have claimed this means it didnt exist in the breed in the past despite the fact the gene wasnt discovered until much later.
despite the mans claim about the gene not existing in the past in records far older than me or him they referred to the trait as "short legged" while non dwarves were "long legged" because at the time we didnt have that type of genetic research many advancements in genetics are very, very, new and still the tip of the proverbial ice berg. They also noted an issue with Short leg X short leg and it was not encouraged.
Polled was introduced into dexters by the bull SALTAIRE PLATINUM who IS *NOT* PUREBRED. Two great granddams in his pedigree were only 50-50. He does not make the 4 generations to purebred on either side. he was introduced into US dexter lines to bring in the polled gene. a GRADE bull.
an interesting forum post ( here)
Noted Pedigree inconsistencies in Saltair platinum (here) and forums with records below
I will add i'm not surprised that the same man that stole photos and altered a tragic event (to market himself in my honest opinion) was so blatantly fighting to maintain false information and yes, I have polled cattle but I wont lie and say it wasn't brought in by a milk man with a smile on his face while Ron Jeremy filmed in the background.
Polled is a dominant gene and horned is recessive so it cannot magically appear this did not change for one man despite his claims.
P- polled
p- horned
so Pp= Polled carries horned
PP= polled no chance of horned offspring but if bred to a horned animal calf will be a carrier of horns though not express.
Scur horn- this can be both genetic or related to failure to remove horn buds on a calf both are typically short and loose to the skull or even detached and floating (not connected to the skull but present and will wiggle or move without much effort on the head) both tend to grow in a non standard manner . i have had a genetic scur horn horns were not spotted by breeder as buds could not be felt for the first 6 months of life at 2 years during pregnancy and while hormones were coursing she developed a 4 inch scur horn that curved heavily inward and was loose to the touch her calf was disbudded and she had her horn trimmed to reduce risk to herself
unlike goats there is no link to horns and intersex or any other major health concern and temperature regulation is NOT effected to a high enough degree to warrant horns.
"I will add this here and keep this tagged so people can find this later more has come to light regarding the administrator of the Dexter breeder group who is making false claims regarding chrondoplasia it appears he actually stole an image from a breeder made comments then screenshotted those comments to cut his name out of it and push his agenda further as the owner of the Black Cow he has used repeatedly and claimed to be 14 years old when it was euthanized due to arthritis and breaking down from chrondoplasia was not in fact dead due to chondoplasia Inky was in her twenties and was euthanized due to busting her hip on the ice in her pasture. I feel this needs to be shared as the breeder themselves has wanted the truth to be known and did not want their animal used in that manner. Many also did discuss the censorship in his group and have been posting about their older cattle that are doing quite well without any issues so i have added their posts.
As always I will say chrondoplasia is only bad when you are not breeding good structure and you are breeding it to another chondroplasia.
Regardless of your cattles dwarf status you should still be doing general maintenance. There are no studies proving that 95% are destined to break down there are no studies claiming that they are at a higher risk of arthritis than any other cattle at a particular age. In fact most studies point to poor hoof maintenance and structure as a major cause of arthritis. this individual also claimed and stole images that were under copywrite laws and altered them to mislead people saying chondro was the same as human arthritis and hip displacement in dogs. this is false.
this individual also believes any hoofstock that requires maintenance should be culled despite numerous studies saying otherwise and many farmers and ranchers knowing that hoof care can increase long term productivity and reduce stress and pain in their animals. hooves let unattended break, develop abscesses and infections as well as arthritis all and all leading to a shorter harder life for a cow.
